MATTHEW LIU：Origin Protocol 起源协议的创始人之一。
YouTube 的早期产品经理，硅谷创业多年的连续创业者，和联合创始人 Josh Fraser 在 Origin 之前就共同成功地建立了多家公司，产生年过百万美金的收入。
Higgs百佬荟是Higgs Capital推出的区块链百人超级访谈节目，节目定向邀请100位圈内知名研究专家、项目发起人，针对行业发展趋势、标准规则、投资趋势、应用趋势等，展开解读和研究。
以下是Higgs Capital 记者采访内容：
Higgs百佬荟：可以请您先简单介绍一下Origin Protocol吗？我想很多人都对这个平台感兴趣。
MATTHEW LIU：Origin Protocol 是一个建立在区块链上的中间协议层技术平台。我们开发的功能可以为共享的经济市场的应用服务，也可以用于市场上大部分去中心化应用。我们致力于构建一个大规模的商务网络，我们的愿景是促进分布式网络上开放、免费服务的交换。Origin Protocol可以看作是为分布式共享经济版本的优步、滴滴打车或爱彼迎 (Airbnb)提供技术和网络相应的基础。
对比中心化平台，分布式交易平台会带来许多好处，主要体现在两大层面，一是财务，二是平台入口。首先，没有中间商以后，向用户收取的佣金也随之取消，收益也将全部返给买家和卖家；其次，通过token经济模型的设计让所有对平台发展做出贡献的参与者都获得利益。我们知道，传统风险投资领域，公司创始人、团队能在IPO并购中赚一大笔钱，但真正的平台参与者却没有。所以，我们希望通过Origin Protocol重新分配买卖方、市场运营人员、平台方等多方的财务价值，构建一个真正开放公平、可以进行点对点交易的平台。
当前，世界上有两百多万人口没有银行户口、信用卡，他们无法使用支付宝、微信支付、苹果支付，创业对他们来说非常困难，我们希望也可以为这些创业团队和用户提供更多机会。
Higgs百佬荟：那么Origin Protocol的价值和意义是什么？
MATTHEW LIU：
1、减免费用；
2、重新分配分布式网络的财务价值；
3、构建开放公平的商业环境；
4、为没有银行账户的人提供数字商品和服务。
5、移除中间商，这也是我们最核心的特点。
技术层面上，我们通过开发可以被广泛集成的去中心化的功能为Dapps甚至传统(中心化)互联网应用提供价值，这样所有Dapps和传统应用可以将他们的全部精力集中在产品设计和服务上。我们的技术是开源的，这些技术可以被视为新的标准并广泛推广使用，比如说, 目前我们也在推广ERC 725的验证机制和其它技术创新，与此同时，我们还开发了即时短讯去中心化应用。
Higgs百佬荟：共享出行领域确实需要改进，最近滴滴遇到了严重的问题，由于平台没有对司机身份进行严格监管，接二连三犯罪案的发生让人们严重质疑滴滴打车的安全性。那如果滴滴打车采用这项新技术可以解决哪些问题？
MATTHEW LIU：人们对于中心化平台过于信任，滴滴打车没有积极调查驾驶员基础信息，并营造了一种虚假的安全感，当然，去中心化的世界中也会存在身份和声誉的问题，需要一些时间来构建强大而全面的系统。
1.从最开始说起，如果用户和司机不存在错误的安全意识以及安全感，则意味着买卖双方可以更好、更谨慎的审查交易对方；
2.从长远来看，如果我们启用自我主权身份，允许用户将他们从一个或多个应用程序里获得的身份和声誉转移到另一个应用程序，将有利于形成更全面的声誉系统。每个中心化的平台都有自己独立的用户交易记录和评论记录，但在具有自我主权身份的去中心化平台中，用户可以在多个服务平台建立自己的声誉，但每个平台用于的信息都一样，这样任何一方都很值得信赖。
Higgs百佬荟：你怎么看token，token是这个生态的必需品么？为什么？
MATTHEW LIU：这个问题需具体情况，具体分析。
首先，代币的一项重大创新是为互不信任的双方创造了信任的激励机制，最好的例子仍然是比特币和以太坊挖矿，激励措施推动了人们的行为方式，对于分布式应用而言，这一点非常重要，当然前提是要构建正确的激励结构和代币用途，所以要做好它非常具有挑战性。
其次，目前市场上有很多代币项目实际上都是空气币，不值得存在。
Higgs百佬荟：目前的区块链共享领域，您觉得存在哪些机遇和挑战？
MATTHEW LIU：共享经济有着巨大的机会，我们看到，全世界越来越多的人加入到了共享经济当中，人们有更多灵活流动的工作，更多的人成为了供应商。市场正在快速增长，并将继续发展下去，与过去相比，消费者的租赁和分享不断增加。
当然，也有很多挑战，中心化的平台大都是区域性的垄断者，他们拥有大量用户数据，并且有大量的市场资金摧毁竞争对手，一旦他们这样做并且成功了，供应商将会得到更糟糕的对待。比如，优步已经多次提高平台的交易手续费；滴滴打车的客户服务整体下降，OFO小黄车由于资金链断掉而车辆更新度和服务下降……这些公司发展得太快并且过于主导市场，用户体验不再是核心，定价也不合理。
还有一点是这种高度中心化的企业容易受到审查，许多共享经济服务在其他国家被禁止。去中心化的市场的政策风险更小, 更能保证自由和公开的交易。
Higgs百佬荟：熊市对你们有没有影响，请问您如何应对？
MATTHEW LIU：我们其实并没有专注的去看市场每天的变化情况。但是，熊市对我们也是有影响的，这种影响有利有弊。
首先，当大家对区块链公司和产品更加悲观时，融资环境会变得更加艰难，很多空气项目也将会消失，噪音减少。其次，因为赚快钱的投机机会的消失，意味着只要我们不断的构建我们的技术并提供产品，像我们这样的长期重点项目将能进一步脱颖而出。
互联网第一波最伟大的公司就是在熊市环境中脱颖而出的，他们不仅提供了很多，更创造了新的牛市，亚马逊谷歌是很好的例子，Facebook在2018年金融危机后也经历了惊人的增长，这些公司在熊市中蓬勃发展，最终成为具有代表性的公司。无论熊牛市都要专注于建设而不是价格。
虽然不知道具体什么时间，但我们知道牛市终会回归。所以，我们要专注于尽快建设底层设施，做好充足的准备，以实现真正的应用。
Higgs百佬荟：您觉得目前市场上的众多公链项目应该注重什么？
MATTHEW LIU：我认为在layer 1是有创新很重要，因为它会给竞争带来更多进步，虽然很多人只想建立自己的区块链而不并不关注应用，但最终，在这些公共区块链上建立开发是必要的。
Higgs百佬荟：请您简单描述下您对区块链行业接下来的发展趋势的看法。
MATTHEW LIU：我认为区块链的长期前景是非常乐观的，就像互联网Web 1.0，Web 2.0的发展一样，它创建了很多我们意想不到的产品和服务，并因此改变了我们的生活。区块链的一些最佳应用落地目前还没有出现，我觉得至少需要10年的时间去创新、发展，因为大部分的价值创造都需要时间。
区块链的最佳增长是复合增长，时间越久影响越远，包括财务回报。目前大多数的区块链设计面临巨大的技术挑战，可伸缩性是条件之一，用户体验也急需改善。当前Dapps的用户体验是不可接受的，在修复之前，主流用户不会使用基于区块链构建的Dapps。在Origin Protocol，我们也正在努力创新一些用户体验，因为我们觉得这是非常必要的。
区块链正在成为一个全球现象，我非常幸运能够投身于这个行业，我相信未来应该会有更多令人兴奋的机会，也会有更多的合作、权力、组织价值下放给个人等等。区块链将成为一项世界技术，它提供的许多好处将是世界的好处。
Higgs百佬荟：您认为美国的区块链项目与中国的区块链有什么区别？
MATTHEW LIU：中国和美国都是创业创新的领导者。
1）中国有巨大的市场、成熟的风险投资生态系统、惊人的科技公司，与硅谷和旧金山非常相似。美国区块链项目往往有更多的开源贡献，中国区块链项目似乎并不是这种发展文化，更多是私人团队。
2）中国的许多公司在尝试反向ICO，拥有大量用户群的公司将进行标记化，美国许多成熟的科技公司没有试图做反向ICO，他们更多的是致力于标记化的初创公司。
-
美国和中国的投资者情况也不同。例如，美国风险资本家主要关注基础设施，并且时间跨度更长。中国和亚洲其他国家虽然仍然专注于第1层，但更容易接受应用层。
-
相同的一点是，中国和美国的监管环境都很严峻。
英文版
Higgs百佬荟：First of all, could you give a brief introduction of OriginProtocol? I guess many people are very curious about it.
MATTHEW LIU：Origin protocal is a platform for merging many decentralised marketplaces all over world. We are initially focuing on the sharing economy, and we believe there’s future where should be a decentrazlied version of DIDI or Uber, or Airbnb.
For example, we believe there’re two large category of benefits. The first one is financial incentive, the second one is access and services. So let’s talk about the financial incentive first.
By removing the middleman, we also able to remove fees that middleman charge. We want to give the values back to buyers and sellers. Secondly. we want to use crypto economy incentives to allow all stakeholders in the platform to benefit from it. In the tradional world, venture capital、foudner and its empolyee benefit, but the people actually got into the network do not. In this world, today we want to redistribute the values back to the buyers and sellers, its partner, as well as the marketplaces operators.
We want to open up opportunities for many of the less fortunate people. There’re 2 millions people that currently are unbanked. They don’t have credit cards, saving accounts and checking accounts. They don’t have wechatpay, alipay and applepay. So when they do business is very very difficult. However, right now there’re many these 2 million people have cheap android phone and with cryptocurrency they can actually transact one another without commissions from the banks or the government. Origin we believe can enable many centralized marketplaces all over the world again. So In some of the less fortunate areas, we hope to see for the first time these buyers and sellers can transact one another online.
Higgs百佬荟：What’s the key value of origin protocol?
MATTHEWLIU：
-
Remove fees;
-
Redistribute values of the network to users;
-
Open and fair commerce;
-
Serving the unbanked to access digital goods and services；
-
Essentially-removing the intermediary.
In terms of technology, we add value by building coredecentralization functionalities that all dapps and even centralize dapp lications can integrate, So dapps and apps can focus on building theirproducts and services. Our technology is open source and much of what weare building can serve as New open standards that can be widelyadopted. We have built our own decentralized messaging service. Arepushing forward on an identity standard called ERC 725, And several other technical innovations.
Higgs百佬荟：What kindofsharing economy project do you think are most suitable forblockchain? Could yougive an example?
MATTHEW LIU：Most marketplaces that are designedto be peer to peer can do well on the blockchain. These are individual buyersand sellers, Not large corporations selling goods and services to individualbuyers. We think many categories can be successful, Home sharing, contractor services,home services, outsourcing, car sharing, rideshareinf, But also just productmarketplaces as well . In terms of priority order,It is better to focus on categories with high transaction value that do notneed real time transactions. Because blockchains are not highly scalable yet, Sobuilding adecentralized DiDi is much harder than a decentralized Airbnb.
Higgs百佬荟：Car sharingindeed needs improvement actually, recently Didi’s running into serious problem,especially for its safety. The driver can be criminal since the platform didn’tset up strict rule on it. What problems can be solved if Didi adopts this new technology?
MATTHEW LIU：Int his case people put too muchtrust in the centralized platform
But Didi did not actively moderate its driver base, Thereis a false sense of safety，
In a decentralized world there are still identity and reputationissues of course. It will take some time to build robust and comprehensive systemshere.
-
At the very least to start, not havinga false sense of security and safety means that buyers and sellers will bettervet the counterparty. They will use more caution.
-
In the long term, if we enable selfsovereign identity, we allow users to transfer the identities and reputationsthey have earned over time (across many apps)from one app to another, Thisshould lead to a more comprehensive reputation system. Versus right noweach centralized business is building their own record of a user stransactionhistory and reviews, In the decentralized world with self sovereignidentity a user can build their reputation across many services. Then they canbe more trustworthy to the other side as well.
Higgs百佬荟：Do youthink Token is a necessity of the blockchain ecosystem? And why?
MATTHEW LIU：I think it depends on a caseto case basis
The big innovation of tokens is it creates incentives forparties that don’t trust each other to cooperate, The best example isstill bitcoin and ethereum mining, Incentives drive the way peopleact, And are hugely important to align decentralized parties, Of courseconstructing the right incentive structure, As well as token utility
And usability, Are all very challenging to get right.
There are many broken token systems, And many token based projectsthat don’t deserve to exist, So it’s a really case by case basis.
Higgs百佬荟：What’s the opportunityand challenge of the sharing economy?
MATTHEW LIU：There are huge opportunitieswith the sharing economy, We’ve seen all over the world that more and more peopleare participating in the sharing economy, People have more fluid jobs, Somany more end up as suppliers. The market is growing fast and it will continue.
Also consumers are renting and sharing much more than they arein the past, It’s just a cheaper and more convenient alternative to owning, Nowthere are many challenges, The centralized players are all regionalmonopolies, This allows them to own user data and spend a ton of venture capitalmoney to destroy the competition, Once they do they then treat suppliers morepoorly. For example uber has increased its transaction rates many times；Didi’scustomer service has fallen，Ofo users are negatively ratingthem. The companies have grown too quickly and become too dominant but now theuser experiences are worse, And the pricing is unfair.
Als othey are prone to censorship. Many sharing economy usecases are banned in other countries.
With decentralized marketplaces it is much harder to prevent peoplefrom buying and selling with each other freely.
Higgs百佬荟：As we know,crypto currency market in the midst of a bear market, so how does the bearmarket influence Origin protocol project? How do you deal with those problems?
MATTHEW LIU：To be honest we are not focusedvery much on the day to day market conditions. There are pros and cons to abear market of course, On the one hand itmeans conditions are tougher whenthe general public is more pessimistic about blockchain companies and products. Onthe other hand, This also means many scam my projects will disappear, Therewill be less noise. Because the quick opportunities to make money are gone, Thismeans that long term focused projects like ours, Will be able to stand outmore, As long as we keep delivering on our product and building out ourtech.
The greatest companies in the first wave of the Internet went throughyears of growth under bear market conditions, Before delivering so muchvalue that they created the new bull market, Amazon google are great examples, Facebookalso went through amazing growth after the financealcris is in 2018. We lookto these examples of startups that became generationally impactful companiesthat thrived in a bear market, Easier to attract talent.
Less competition, Ability to focus on building rather than obsessingabout prices.
We believe the bull market will come back, Not sure when. But in the meantime, We are focused onbuilding as quickly as possible to get real adoption, Then we will beexcellently positioned for the bull market.
Higgs百佬荟：Could youpleaseshare something about the current development stage of originprotocol?Forexample, product strategy, roadmap and vision.
MATTHEW LIU：We are going to release our v1 before the year is out, Ontoethereum mainnet, This will be our mainnetbeta, We will then continue to test and improve the platform, We willthen have v2 and v3 features in the coming months.
We expect our first partner applications to be built early 2019, Our long term vision is to enable many different use cases inmany countries allover the world, We are very excited about the asian market China, korea, Singapore etc. Since there is much more adoption here, For apreview of what’s to come, You can check out our testnet demo.
Higgs百佬荟：Asamatterof fact, there’re a number of public blockchain projects on the market now.What’s your opinion on that?
MATTHEW LIU：I think that it’s important that there is in novation in layer 1,Competition will breed advance ments. So that is good, In general though I do think too many people want to build their own blockchain without focusing on adoption Ultimately developers building ontop of these public blockchains is necessary To have real impact.
We chose to build on ethereum because it is actually out there and working. And the developer community is very strong. Many other public blockchains have not launched, Or have very little usage, Over time ones with no adoption will probably go away, And there will be a few dominantones, And there will probably be interoperability between the best chains. Obviously one of the big issues with many public chains isscal ability, So that needs to be solved, And the ones that are more scalable May not be secure or decent ralized, Vitalik calls if the blockchain trilemma. It is very very difficult to have decent ralization, security, and scalability all simultaneously.
Higgs百佬荟：Thankyou.We come to the last question. Could you please share your view onthe trendofthe blockchain industry?
MATTHEW LIU：I am very optimistic and excited about the long term prospects of blockchain, Just as the first wave of the internet evolved Web1.0,Then Web 2.0.There are so many unexpected unpredictable products and services that were created, That changed people’s lives for the better. I think some of the best use cases for blockchain have not been even imagined yet, AndI think there will be at least 10 years of innovation and growth, Much ofthat value creation will take time though.
The best growth is compounded growth, And the later years will have the most impact, As well as financial returns, And most usage. There are many many short term challenges, And the technology challenges are very difficult, Scalability being one of the first prerequisites. After that Therewill be a need to improve user experiences too . Right now the user experience of DApps is unacceptable, No main stream users will use DApps built on top of blockchain until these are fixed. At Origin we are trying to pioneer some of these user experience in novations, Because we feellike that is extremely necessary.
I think this current bear market is painful, But it is a necessary period, To allow the technology to catch up. All in all I feel very blessedto be working in the industry
There are so many exciting opportunities in the future. I also see blockchain Continuing to be a global phenomenon .There will be much more collaboration And decent ralization or organizations, Value PowerEtc. Blockchain will be a world technology , And many of the benefitsit promises to deliver will be world benefits That’s it.
Higgs百佬荟：What’s the difference between blockchain projects in China and the US?
MATTHEW LIU：China and the US are boththe leaders in startup innovation.
-
China has a huge market, Matureeco system of VCs, Amazing tech companies, Same with Silicon Valley and SF, Lots of great tech. Differences, There are multiple, I do not ice that US blockchain projects tend to have more open source contributions. Chinese blockchain projects are not as used to thisdevelopment culture, More seem to be private teams.
-
Also many companies in China are attempting reverse ICOs. Companies with large established user bases going to wards token ization, We don’t see many mature tech companies in the US trying to do reverse ICOs. It’s mostly startups that are working on token ization.
-
The investor profile for US and China also seem to be different, US venture capitalists for example are mostly focused on in frast ructure and have longer time horizon.
-
China and rest of Asia, while still heavily focused on layer 1, is more receptive to the application layer，Regulatory environment in both China and US is tough.
采访记者： Eva
整理：Zyra