Author | Yan Hui Editor | Tu Min
Listing | CSDN (ID: CSDNnews)
What is the end of programmers?
Some people say that the end of being a programmer is not being a programmer.
So, what can you do if you are not a programmer?
Whenever you open the top ten high-paying job rankings published on the Internet, as expected, there will always be a figure that comes into view, and that is - programmer. However, on the road of creating wealth, not being a programmer or the extended "prospect" of programmers, there is no doubt that entrepreneurship will be a direction that many people want to try boldly.
In this issue of "Let's Talk: Programmers Create Wealth Series" interviews, we invited Li Xiaolai, a well-known angel investor, teacher, and writer in the industry, Cheng Hao, founding partner of Yuanwang Capital and founder of Xunlei, and partner Renkang Lufa, under the auspices of CSDN strategic cooperation director Yan Hui, focused on programmers' entrepreneurship and wealth creation, and jointly discussed the future potential of programmers. We will also use this article to gain an in-depth understanding of how programmers can achieve sustained success and the opportunities and challenges on the road to entrepreneurship from the perspective of investors.
The enlightenment period of the program
Yan Hui: We know that the three teachers have a close relationship with programmers. Please briefly introduce your programming experience and your contact with the programmer community.
Li Xiaolai: I am a typical example of "I was a genius when I was young, but I am crooked when I grow up".
I came into contact with computers in 1984, when I was only 12 or 13 years old. I learned Basic and won some awards. Unfortunately, I did not continue to study in depth when I reached high school, and later I did not work as a programmer. However, I am somewhat of a demanding computer user.
The closest I was to a programmer was probably writing a book in 2019 - "Self-study is a Craft", which used self-study Python as an example to share some basic rules of self-study. Even longer ago, in 2014, at the age of 42, I spent two weeks learning web programming and developed a website, which was officially operational for a period of time. In addition, I have also made many programmer friends, such as Jiang Tao, Huo Ju, Liu Jiang, etc., and I am still very close to the circle of programmers. Today we communicate more with a learning attitude.
Cheng Hao: I studied Basic in primary school and middle school. My undergraduate major was mathematics. After graduation, I went to the United States to study computer science, and then worked as a programmer in Silicon Valley. After returning to China, he first worked at Baidu and then founded Xunlei.
The early 1.0 and 2.0 versions of Xunlei were written by my partner and several early engineers, so I have been a "code farmer" for a long time. After 2005, Xunlei had more and more technical experts, and I gradually transitioned into product and operations. Because Xunlei is still a technology-based company, our pioneering P2SP algorithm and technology are also innovative to a certain extent, and I am very happy to have the opportunity to communicate with you here.
Kang Lufa: Different from the previous two teachers, I only came into contact with computers after entering university. At that time, I was very interested in computers and received relatively systematic training. I still remember that at that time we were using Boolean processors, computer time was precious, and the code was mainly handwritten on program paper.
After graduating from university, I joined a company in Tongfang Building. I was responsible for the Chinese character input method at the bottom of Windows with several experts. Later, I was mainly engaged in marketing and sales related work.
During the subsequent entrepreneurial processes, I never stopped studying code. Among them, I once worked on an online work platform, using an ASP open source forum system to support more than 1 million users, and also explored the performance limit in terms of high concurrent load. Therefore, whenever new open source products and development tools appear, I am willing to try them, including Android, Apple's development tools, cloud computing, virtualized open source products, and so on. Recently, I am working as a venture capital FA, and I am also researching open source projects related to AI-generated graphics and images based on my personal interests.
Entrepreneurship success is always a small probability event, but programmers have advantages in starting a business
Yan Hui: Is it easier for programmers to create wealth than other groups of people? What are the advantages?
Li Xiaolai: I think first of all, even if it is not engineering ability, just the most basic programming ability, a person's efficiency will be greatly improved.
The first time I set up the illusion of being rich for myself was when I wrote a book. After the book is published, there will be royalties, and the royalties at that time will be remitted to a new bank account of mine. At that time, there was only a passbook and no bank card, so I tore up the passbook. That account has been there for 20 years now, and royalties go into it every year, but I have never opened it. Because I said to myself, "If a person has money that he never needs to spend, is he a rich person?!"
So 20 years ago, when I didn’t have a lot of money, I had the illusion that I was rich. That book is "TOEFL Core Vocabulary 21-Day Breakthrough". The 2,140 words in this book are disassembled from decades of real questions, and then counted word frequencies, and these tasks cannot be done purely by hand, so at that time I used programming to write scripts to count them. This book can be said to be insurmountable among books published by English teachers, because other English teachers cannot write programs. In this era, as long as a person has certain programming skills, he can do more things than others, and he can make more money if he is good at it.
The second level is the value of the means of production, which is very important. Thirty years ago, the most important means of production for all mankind was still land. In the past 30 years, this trend has completely changed, because the real estate company is definitely not the largest listed company in the financial market. Except for one or two capital companies, the rest of the top ten companies are technology companies, which shows the value of production materials. Something has changed.
I found that the more abstract the means of production, the higher the profits. Because the abstract cost of production means is close to zero. In the past, production required the use of land and minerals, but now value can be created using data, and the cost of data is very low. This is the value mechanism of IT companies.
When I am an author, I am also one of the coders, but I code only words, and the words cost zero. But programmers are much better than writers. Writers can only tell stories, while programmers can write all kinds of programs. With engineering ability, they can also write platforms and services. The market is infinite. The works of Chinese writers can only be read by Chinese people, but the services produced by Chinese programmers can be viewed by the world.
Therefore, the programmer profession is closest to data, the most important means of production in this era. If programmers don't make money, or if they don't make enough money as programmers, it can be said that God will not tolerate it.
Cheng Hao: Frankly speaking, I think programmers do have obvious advantages in starting a business.
Let me add to the topic that the teacher laughed at just now. It is relatively easy for programmers to create wealth because the most valuable companies in the world are technology companies, and programmers are inherently closest to the core values of these companies. Bill Gates, Larry Page, Robin Li, Ma Huateng, and Zhang Yiming are all programmers. It is estimated that more than half of the bosses of technology companies have programmer backgrounds. From the perspective of probability, it is easier for programmers to create wealth than other professions .
The reason is relatively simple. If a salesperson serves as the CEO, they have to recruit several programmers to build their core competitiveness. As the core of a company's entrepreneurship, programmers can start entrepreneurial projects without relying on others, and only two people can start them. Taking myself as an example, Zou Shenglong (former chairman of the board of directors of Xunlei) and I were two programmers, and we founded Xunlei at that time.
There are advantages to starting a business as a programmer, but it is not suitable for all types of projects. Among them, technical innovation projects are obviously the most suitable technical personnel to be CEOs. For example, research and development of search engines, regardless of the United States or China, CEOs basically have a technical background, because search engines are technology-driven fields. However, for operations-driven companies or businesses, such as games and video websites, it is better for someone with a strong operational background to be the CEO.
Kang Lufa: I believe that programming starts with data structures, that is, modeling, then algorithms, and then programming codes. Data modeling and data structure are the abilities to construct the world. This is similar to the saying in traditional Chinese culture that "something comes out of nothing, two things come out of one thing, three things come out of two things, and all things come out of three things".
When there is a programming task, it is actually a process of mapping to the real world. Programming is a higher level abstract capability. However, the ability to abstract has advantages and disadvantages.
The advantage is that if you are a technology-driven startup, your early products will be strong, and your technical intuition can drive the company to become large enough.
The disadvantage is that when the company reaches a certain scale and needs to be managed, it is not a clear code problem of 0 and 1, but a fuzzy mathematics and fuzzy algorithm, and modeling is difficult. If founders with a programmer background break through this, they can do any business.
Teacher Cheng Hao said that it is easy for programmers to start a business because it is easy to look down from Brother Hao’s height and easy to look back.
However, I have seen 500 to 1,000 programmers start their own businesses, with a 90% failure rate. Most of them went back to work and continued to work part-time. There are also 9% who have a small company that is "dead or alive", with hundreds of thousands to one person every year. For an individual, an income of two million is considered a success in starting a business. But from the perspective of VC investment or personal career pursuits, the annual turnover has exceeded 10 million. Whether it is a technology-driven, product-driven, or sales-driven company, the proportion is less than 1%.
Cheng Hao: Teacher Kang’s sharing is very reasonable. Success in starting a business is always a small probability event. We have summarized many rules in investment, but all the rules can actually find many counterexamples. Of course, this does not mean that these rules are worthless, because investment depends on high probability events. For example, it is relatively easy for Gao Fushuai to start a business, it is easy to form a team, it is easy to raise financing, and it is easy to acquire customers. However, this does not mean that Gao Fushuai's entrepreneurship has a very high success rate. It is just a relative event. The success of Gao Fushuai's entrepreneurship is also a small probability event.
Yan Hui: Do programmers have any specific thinking model? Does this thinking model help them create wealth?
Li Xiaolai: There are two kinds of languages used by human beings: one is natural language , which is used in daily life and is relatively vague but very flexible; the other is called artificial language or man-made language, that is, mathematics and physics are Artificial language, programming is also an artificial language. What artificial language pays attention to is a small vocabulary, accurate usage, and no ambiguity. Natural language is used to make jokes in daily life, but if you want to discuss issues, it is better to use artificial language instead of using natural language and mud.
Some people have been in the real world for a long time and hate all vague content and natural language. But I think as long as this is taken care of, everything will be fine.
Cheng Hao: The advantage of a programmer is definitely that his thinking is more logical, and he can express a relatively complete set of logic. Of course, logic is obviously not everything in starting a business.
I mentioned before that programmers have to break through three hurdles when starting a business:
The first level is called the technical level. This is usually the easiest level for programmers to break through, because programmers will definitely look for relatively familiar fields to start a business.
The second level is called business perspective, which has certain challenges. Because to do 2C, you need to be able to acquire customers, and to do 2B, you need to be able to get customers. Logical thinking skills are also important, but not everything. 2C is more suitable for logical thinking ability, and people with a programmer background can definitely understand it. 2B customer acquisition is more about soft skills, including observing words, judging the opponent's role, decision-making chain decision logic, etc. Not all programmers can do it well.
The third level is very important, which is the organization level. When there are only a few people in the company, everyone within 20 people knows each other, and there is little need for too many management mechanisms. But if the company has 100 or more people and lacks organizational capabilities, the more people there are, the lower the efficiency will be. This is a very big obstacle.
Therefore, in addition to the inherent rational thinking ability, programmers must also develop the ability to deal with people, develop personal charm, and at the same time have awe of organizational management.
Entrepreneurship itself is also a process of improving cognition, so to put it simply, starting a programmer's business is to break through three levels: technical level, business level and organizational level.
Kang Lufa: I have observed that many entrepreneurs with a programmer background have two professional inertias that will have a negative impact on entrepreneurship:
First of all, they are used to elegant code and accurate estimation. There is no problem with making programs, but if you put this habit in your work, you hope that there are also work functions to call accurately, and the chance of "dropping the chain" is extremely high. Because people need redundancy factors to do things.
The second is to bring over the black and white thinking mode of 0 and 1. The program can be like this, but the management is not black and white. Of course, there are a group of excellent programmers who are both excellent programmers and talented businessmen, such as Ma Huateng and Zuckerberg.
In addition to working on technical code, many programmers do not have enough abstraction ability in daily life. If they do not have scalable thinking in interpersonal interactions and business logic, some inertia in programming will be brought over and bring bad feedback.
On the road to financial freedom, what should programmers do?
Yan Hui: Teacher Xiaolai wrote a book called "The Road to Wealth Freedom", which talks about the need to change a lot of perceptions if you want to create wealth. Are these perceptions the same for everyone? Are there any special cognitive changes that programmers need to make?
Li Xiaolai: I think they are similar. Generally speaking, there is no place in the world specifically for programmers to make money. Once we want to create wealth and obtain economic benefits, we enter the same market and the same world. Once a business model is established, it can only be universal and difficult to change.
I shared a different concept in my book "The Road to Financial Freedom" - a personal business model. I mainly study how a person can obtain more benefits, rather than studying organizations.
The core model for most people to make money in their lives is to sell their own time, that is, to learn a skill, use this skill to work, and finally calculate how much money they can earn for an hour of work. Different majors may bring different incomes. Everyone is increasing the value of their time, but this value has an end. Because knowledge can be learned infinitely, but the time that can be sold in a day is limited. It may be very tiring to work for 8 hours, and 12 hours is the limit, so this model has an end.
Therefore, I chose another path - to find a way to sell the same time multiple times. For example, when I am a teacher, I can give lectures to 50 people at the same time, which is equivalent to selling that time to 50 people, but I think this is not enough, making money is too slow, so I want to go to a school where 500 people listen to a class, this is New Oriental, This is also the reason why New Oriental’s wages are high. Then I wrote the book, which took 9 months to write. The book sold for 20 years and sold to many people.
Only in this way can we have breakthrough income. This is the most basic conceptual breakthrough.
In fact, programmers are the easiest to create products and services. In today's world, apart from writing, it is not easy to find a career that can sell the same time for multiple rounds. Products and services written by programmers clearly fit this definition.
In terms of cognition, I have a big suggestion: don’t set your goals too big. Today you don’t need to win the world to support yourself. It’s already good if your product has 100,000 paying users.
Therefore, I am not willing to use such a big word as entrepreneurship with people now. It is actually very easy for programmers to have a job to support themselves, or to make a living that is ten times better than they are now. The core key is to find a product and service that is worthy of your research investment, can be produced, and can be sold.
Two days ago, I also saw an article about a programmer who can earn 100 million a year without the need for investment institutions or listing. I think that this era is different. On the one hand, we should use our own advantages, on the other hand, there is no need to think too much, and it is very good in this era to do a good job in making a living.
Cheng Hao: The key to programmers creating wealth or starting a business is to choose the right track . To give a simple example, from 2000 to 2010, most people worked or started businesses in the Internet field; from 2010 to 2015, it was obvious that they should choose the mobile Internet.
There is a saying that goes well : choice is greater than effort. This sentence makes so much sense. A Baidu guy I met before once shared his real experience: In 2017, he did very well at Baidu. At that time, ByteDance "digbed" him to be responsible for the commercialization of Douyin. But at that time, after using the early Douyin product, he didn’t understand it, so he didn’t go there. Later, he chose the small yellow car of ofo. Although he may have gotten a higher title or salary, the result after two years is already obvious.
From a broad perspective, if you choose a sunrise industry first, you must choose those fields with development dividends in the general trend. Otherwise, choosing a sunset industry is like pushing a rock up a hill, which is very painful.
Next, choosing a company is still important. Then everyone will definitely ask: How can you choose the right industry and company?
Back to cognition itself, except for some factors that are luck or passive selection. There are also some active factors, the core of which is to enhance awareness.
There are two effective ways to improve cognition:
One is to read more books. The knowledge in books is relatively systematic, while the contents of public accounts and short videos are very fragmented.
The biggest problem with the book is that the content is not up to date, so how to make up for the latest knowledge? The second point is to communicate more with experts in the industry. This is particularly important and is the fastest way to improve your knowledge.
Kang Lufa: Programmers create wealth. There are a group of programmers who are used to making planning frames from top to bottom. They have a slight sense of looking down on the world, maybe only 5 degrees, but the feeling of looking down is actually not conducive to improving cognition. It would be better if he looked straight up, if he could have a slight sense of looking up to the world at 5 degrees, then he would always be in a state of learning.
Cheng Hao: I agree very much, that is to say, it is very important to always remain humble and curious about new things.
Yan Hui: The concept of entrepreneurship in the Internet circle is very big. From the perspective of wealth creation, for many programmers, I would like to invite three guests to talk about how to earn one million, five million, and ten million. MVP (Simplest Viable Product) or SOP (Standard Operating Procedure)?
Cheng Hao: Which method to choose depends on what the ultimate goal is.
It is not difficult for programmers to make a million. If you take on an outsourcing project outside of work, you can earn a million with just a few projects. But after making this kind of one million, it may be more difficult to make 10 million. If you want to make 100 million, there will be no chance. I believe that making one million is not necessarily the only way to make 10 million, nor is making 10 million the only way to make 100 million.
As an investor, when looking at a company's revenue, what you look at is whether the revenue is the main revenue in the future. If you just plunder the wool of certain institutions, or make a million dollars through an outsourcing project, this is not counted as main income, and it will not help the company's valuation.
If you want to make big money, you don't necessarily need to make this little money. There is no praise or criticism here. It does not mean that earning 100 million means you are worthy of admiration, and earning 1 million means you are ordinary.
For programmers, everyone has their own ambitions. I am definitely willing to set a high goal, but not everyone is suitable for starting a business. If you work in a big factory for a few more years, you will have a lot of stocks plus cash. You can also buy a house, get married, and raise a baby in first-tier cities. Some people think that third-tier cities are also suitable. You can live a good life.
I can't set goals for others because I can't replace everyone.
Kang Lufa: I have a few opinions for programmer friends to refer to:
The first one is the summary and abstraction ability of pain points. For example, any programmer has taken a taxi, and taking a taxi on the side of the road is a pain point. For this pain point, can the programmer have a flash of inspiration, do simulation calculations with the brain, and can he make a system and sell it to the taxi company. If you have the ability to mine, deduce, and simulate pain points, you will have opportunities for basic necessities of life. I have also seen technicians in certain industries write a set of systems such as the management system of hairdressing salons and car repair shops with their coding skills in their spare time. There are cases where the company’s valuation reaches tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions. . Secondly, everyone is doing development, providing tools for developers, and even making money through open source.
The second is the Disruption Index. Why Didi's valuation is so high? Because the subversion index is sufficient. Through mobile Internet, the subversion index has been greatly improved. When taking a taxi, 100 drivers are still relying on this system on the road, so this is an innovative and disruptive index.
The third is that the unit price per customer is inversely proportional to how much money you will earn in the future. For Meituan users, the unit price per customer is 20 yuan, and for Didi takeout, the unit price is 20 yuan. The lower the unit price, the greater the business.
Li Xiaolai: When I heard this question just now, I didn’t react for a while. After listening to the sharing of the two guests, I realized why I didn’t react just now.
Because I have never set a goal on how much money I can make in my life. This does not mean that it is bad to regard money as a goal, nor is it pretending to be noble. I am also a very vulgar person. Others regard money as dung.
My concept is that as long as you are a valuable person, someone will bid in the market. Prices may not be accurate, they may be underestimates or overestimates, but how much money you want to make should not be the goal, but how expensive you want to become and have the ability to keep up.
I have been investing for a long time, and what I once sounded very abstract and false gradually felt that it was very right. Your ability to make money will most likely depend on your ability to create value for society. Of course, it does not rule out that some people can make money without creating value.
How to make yourself profitable, I think there is a particularly basic ability: the ability to produce complete products and complete services. If you are only good at one aspect, you can only cooperate with others and participate in their production. I worked at New Oriental, and many teachers from New Oriental opened schools, but I haven’t seen anything very successful in so many years. Why is this? Because as soon as I went out, I would find someone else who could sell courses, so I suddenly realized that Yu Minhong could not only give lectures, but also sell courses well.
Therefore, I think programmers need to have particularly complete abilities, not the highest individual abilities. If you want to make more money in addition to wages, then there is only one option, not only to participate in production, but to organize production.
Future trends and directions
Yan Hui: In the future of programmers, which directions have more potential for development?
Cheng Hao: To be honest, I think there are relatively few opportunities in big factories now. It is understandable if graduates go to a big factory for two years of training first, but if they want to have long-term development in the future, the development space of big factories is relatively limited.
Personally, I am more optimistic about global business, with the world as the main market, not just the Chinese market. The target of Chinese entrepreneurship is Chinese users, and the target of American entrepreneurship is the global population of 6 billion.
I think there are great opportunities for Web3 entrepreneurship, because Web3 represents greater freedom and lower-cost trust. In fact, many people from major manufacturers are now starting to work on Web3. Three years ago, those working on Web3 in the United States were all grassroots, but today many people from major Silicon Valley companies have made a lot of money.
Yan Hui: I believe many friends are not very clear about the overall concept of Web3. From a programmer's perspective, what are the development and future trends of this technology?
Li Xiaolai: I think one thing that the Internet has not gotten rid of is that the physical body can never be integrated into the network. Even if there is a brain-computer interface, the physical body is still needed. Therefore, I think it is unrealistic to completely integrate into the world of the metaverse.
I look at web development trends. In the web 1.0 era, there is only information circulation, nothing else is available, and you cannot buy anything. Many people say that the Web 2.0 era is the era of relationship networks, but looking back, the economic value created by social networks in the past decade does not seem to be real. Although Facebook is the benchmark of web 2.0, its economic model is still an advertising model. 2.0 represented by social products does not have a big splash.
The most profitable ones are listed e-commerce companies. E-commerce has been the leader in economic efficiency in the past decade or so. The rise of e-commerce is due to the rise of logistics. Business requires three flows: money flow, information flow and logistics. The core of e-commerce is these three.
I think the core of Web3 is money flow. The money circulating on it is more than one country's currency. Money can go anywhere, and the handling fee is close to zero. This is the core change and trend in my opinion.
Money flow has become a low-cost system like information flow. What changes will it bring to the world? We couldn't guess, but I sure have been paying attention.
Cheng Hao: This topic is quite big, so I’ll try to be as concise as possible. I think the core value of Web3 is greater freedom and cheaper trust.
For programmers, the entire Web3 environment is very open, and many are open source products. You can develop directly on them without the consent of others. Coupled with the fact that data belongs to users, this building-block innovation is very efficient. With building-block development and a more open environment, the development speed of Web3 may far exceed that of Web2. If I don't pay attention to Web3 for a month, it seems to be a bit behind the times.
The second is cheaper trust. Because there are smart contract guarantees in Web3, transactions do not require mutual trust between us. Many things that cannot be done can now be done, and the previously high cost can become very low cost. This is the core value.
Of course, the current Web3 infrastructure is not very complete, and TPS and transaction gas fees are relatively expensive. So at present, the main projects are Defi financial projects, because financial assets are required to enter, and there is no breaking the circle, but I believe that the future of Web3 games will definitely be a breakthrough point, and I am also very optimistic about Web3 social networking.
Kang Lufa: In China, digital renminbi and distributed governance will create many business models in the future.
Under different technological driving forces and productivity levels, there are different forms of social organization. Now let’s look at the social organization form of global human beings in 200 years. It may be Web3.
I feel that we are living in a great era, and we are fortunate to have personally participated in China's rapid rise.
Yan Hui: If programmers want to start a business and create wealth, in addition to basic coding skills, what other abilities or resources do they need?
Cheng Hao: For entrepreneurs, especially CEOs, whether they are programmers or not, investors mainly look at four points:
Entrepreneurship is about whether you can persevere. Starting a business is like going through "nine-nine-nine-eighty-one difficulties". Don't give up after two or three difficulties.
Leadership, that is, lack of aura, ability to convince partners, VCs, and customers. Leadership may be something that many entrepreneurs with a programmer background do not possess, so this category needs to make up for this.
Execution. Can something that can be done in one month be shortened to two weeks?
learning ability. Whether you are a programmer or not, this is important.
Li Xiaolai: Today, the whole world is unimaginably friendly to creators and producers. There are a large number of assistants that allow you to do things that were absolutely impossible before.
My investment life is very simple and not as busy as everyone thinks. I am basically a person who waits for ten years to make a decision. The rest of my time is mainly about giving lectures and writing books.
I often feel that it is fortunate that I live in this era. I don’t need to be restricted by the publishing house, and I can publish it when I write it; I don’t need to be restricted by the bank, I can collect money when I want; You can sell it when you need to. The world is particularly friendly to those who can complete a meaningful service or product alone.
Therefore, for programmers or practitioners who want to start a business and create wealth, my main suggestion is not to think so big first, start by solving a problem, and make a complete product or service. If you can provide a meaningful service and 1 million people pay 5 yuan a year, you can earn 5 million a year.
In addition, since we are talking about creating wealth, the most practical suggestion is to solve your own life problems first, and solve them cleanly and completely. The so-called no burden does not require a lot of money. When there is no burden, your entire judgment system will change dramatically. Then think about what the world needs and what I can do. If you think with a different mentality, you will definitely come to a completely different conclusion.
Yan Hui: Finally, please summarize it in one sentence and share your wealth-creating advice for programmers.
Cheng Hao: Choice is far greater than hard work. You must choose a good and profitable track.
Kang Lufa: I would like to say that you should look up at the world at an angle of 5 degrees and place your gaze 80 centimeters above your head.
Li Xiaolai: If programmers change themselves into service providers, they will definitely make money.
Yan Hui: Thank you very much to the three guests. Everyone has their own different backgrounds and perspectives, as well as very professional perspectives and dimensions. Let’s look at the matter of programmers starting a business and creating wealth together.
For programmers, if they want to create wealth, they need to make the real decisions themselves. It is better to teach people to fish than to teach them to fish. In this issue, the teachers will provide you with some methodologies and frameworks. The real "fish" needs to be caught by yourself.
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